I have posted a comment that I received from my post on "Depression Pt. 1" and some thoughts to this comment. Please feel free to jump in with some thoughts. Whoever this "anonymous" comment is from, I want you to know that I have greatly appreciated your challenging words. I hope this is the beginning to some answers for both of us.
I doubt that this is enough. I doubt that your god is enough. I say this not to be arrogant or disrespectful to you and your god, but because your god used to be my god. And it didn't help. That focus didn't make it better. It actually made it worse. Because I reached out to the word and to the people who supposedly believed the word and there was a big nothingness that met me.
I think Amber may have been right in what she said...that "the fear that the one with depression will be thinking this often keeps those of us who have not had a lot of dealings with depression from speaking truth to those who are in the midst of the toughest times." It leaves those believers struggling with depression feeling truly "silent and separated."
I'm just saying that I think maybe your approach works for some people but not for others. As a former "believer" who had a serious bout with depression that led nowhere good, I can say it wasn't enough for me. I actually learned from that experience to rely not on god or his people but to rely on myself and my mind.
So what would you say to someone like me who says "it's not enough"???
I want to start by saying that I do not have all of the answers, but I am very interested in dialoguing on this so that we can both learn. I am going to put things in numerical points. Some will be suggestions, some questions, etc. These are not in order of importance.
1. I am very glad that you have been so raw and honest. I must say (even thought many times I wish I could not identify with this) that I have had severe doubts and desires to give up. Some of the times of giving up were before I was a Christian and some were after. I remember a time when I almost blew my head off (I was about 17), but a friend called me out of nowhere. This instance was prior to me becoming a Christian, but I know that suicidal tendencies are very common in Christianity also. Thoughts of suicide had always given me some form of relief because I think I had resolved that things would be over very soon. I am incredibly glad I did not follow through, even though some of the most intense bouts of depression were yet to come.
I say this only for the purpose of giving you more of my background and also to hopefully give some framework to some of the things I am going to say. It is hard to express tone in this format, but please take these comments in a sympathetic and concerned tone.
2.You said that you “reached out to the word” and other professing believers, but you found “a big nothingness”. I want to say a few things on this point.
• First of all, I am very sorry that you did not have a sense of any community. I am not sure who you are, but if I was one of these people, I am sorry. I failed you.
• Next, many times I felt like the Word had failed me and I think it came from some misconceptions. You may have some of these (or not) so I am just trying to give you some possibilities to think through. For so long I would use the Word as an end, instead of a means. I made the same mistake of the Jews that Jesus talked about in John 5:39-40. I thought that life was found in the Scripture, instead of Scripture leading me to Him (I still make this mistake sometimes, but I am getting better). This led to a lot of time where I would memorize Scripture and then start “quoting it into the air” and expect some form of relief. The problem is that I was not using the promises of God to lead me to personal relationship with God (2 Pet. 1:3-5). The promises of God are used to lead us, convince us, rebuke us, and encourage us in the Person of God. Therefore, the roots of depression (being alone, desperation, confusion, etc.) are dug up because we realize that not only are we not alone, but He is perfect and has conquered the exact problem I am struggling with. One of the issues is that it takes perseverance. To give up is not the answer, yet it is not easy. I can also say that even though it may not be easy, it is worth it! It could very well be that the depression does not lift in this life time (many times have this), but this is what should lead us to what I said concerning Ps. 42 in my previous post.
• Another misconception I had was to do what I said in my post. I would magnify my situation to a degree that I believed nobody else could understand me and therefore the depression would greatly intensify. The problem is that another persons ability to identify with my situation still does not bring proper relief. It may be good enough for a short time, but never for long term sustainability (long term meaning more than just my temporal current life on Earth). I think the idea of giving up on people who hurt me brought a false peace that I wanted to correlate with Christianity and Christians as being "kill joys" etc. I believe this false sense of peace also came so the enemy could isolate me off more in order to replace this "sense of peace" with bitterness, hurt, pain, etc.
One suggestion would be to meditate on Heb. 12:1. The freedom of being surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses is the reality that “The Church” is made up some incredible people of the past. You can read how they dealt with depressive states and know they are actively involved in the current situations of “The Church”. A couple of book suggestions would be Spiritual Depression by Martyn Lloyd Jones and When I Don’t Desire God by John Piper. These have helped me so much.
• The third misconception that I had in this situation of the failure of the Word and people (and I think you do also) is that I truly believed it. The problem is that it is a lie. We always have an object/Object to which we think is sufficient to satisfy us. You have chosen yourself. I really ask you to reconsider. One of the “freeing” things of battling with depression is knowing that I am not a good object to “bank all of my chips on.” I have got issues (just like everyone else) but this can (and should) free us to search for an all sufficient and perfect answer. This is not just some theoretical (although nothing less than theory) jargon that is alright to talk about, but not good enough to live.
One suggestion is to look at and meditate on Heb. 2:14-18. I have also needed to meditate on the words of Job. “The Lord gives and the Lord takes away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” This is definitely one Scripture that I have doubted often, but I still try to preach this true reality to my soul.
3.On a “change of direction” note. I would say that your situation is very real. This may be a “no joke” comment, but that is not how I mean it. What I mean is that it is important to come to grips with your situation, yet this is not the ultimate end. I think that many times people are scared of finally finding an answer. The reasons can be many fold, but some of the things I have thought through on a personal note are as follows:
• I am used to the feelings of depression and even though I do not like them, I am familiar with them. This familiarity can sometimes give a strange comfort when there seems to be so much more uncertainty (I know this may be strange and you may not have ever felt this way).
• I may actually end up different. As much as I want to be relieved of depression the thoughts of, “How will this be manifested? If the feelings of depression are so intense will I end up looking like a nut case because my feelings would also be intense, but in a joyful way?” These statements may also not be your struggle, but it would be could to examine yourself.
4. Here are some questions I have (again, I do not mean these questions in a trite way. I really want to know).:
• If you have resolved to find the answers in your mind and yourself, how has this journey been?
• How did focusing on God make your situation worse?
• Doesn’t finding answers in yourself and your mind leave you in a lonely (i.e. depressive state) because you have isolated yourself to find answers in yourself?
I have by no means covered everything, but the post seems to be quite long already and it may be good to dialogue things out from here as a starting point. Please know this, I want you to truly know the unconditional love of God in an incredible way. I have prayed for you and I will continue. I have been thanking the Lord for your challenges to me because it forces me to articulate my thoughts and I will hopefully learn a ton from the dialogue.
If anyone else has thoughts do not feel shy.
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6 comments:
I have read your post and want to think on it and mull it over in my mind. As always, I appreciate your transparency and willingness to talk it out. I'll get back to this very soon, I promise.
Wow Vern, you never cease to amaze me with how well you can articulate what you are thinking. First, thank you for doing this series. Depression is a huge topic that seems to often be medicated quickly and addressed a little more slowly, so thank you.
I think something about depression that I have come to know well the past week is the irrationality of the mind. If I am depressed on a day, my mind begins to churn over my life, and begins to think many lies over my life. Whether it be about my husband, or God and his character, or my dearest friends or anything else you can imagine. If I allow my mind to continue in this irrationality of thought, if keeps depression heavy on me. The only way I can battle my mind is though knowing truth about God, which in turn brings me back to him. But the struggle is hard... irrationality of mind may be gone for the moment, depression still may be there, but now the focus is off of myself and on the God who loves me and whom I love and serve!
Okay so long comment, but this is what I kept thinking about in reading your blog, is that if my end is myself, I will never go anywhere but wanting my life to be over NOW. When my focus and life is directed to God who is much greater than myself and gives me hope for a much better eternity, life has meaning in the midst of depression.
Ok, so I have some thoughts. Bear with me as I try to hammer them all out.
First, I realize I may come across as being angry, depressed, or having given up. I am none of the above. As you've said before, it is hard to sense tone in this format. As a former believer, I did not come to a point of giving up or getting angry or disillusioned with god or the community of believers. I simply had a moment of clarity (or a few) in the midst of a very difficult time where I tried to take my own life. This was some four years ago. The community did not fail me in some sort of way. It just wasn't meant to be that kind of support. It taught me to quit looking outside myself and to find strength and determination within. I am simply now very aware of the community's limitations. No failure need be acknowledged.
Secondly, knowing that you (and I) have issues and are not perfect is a beginning to finding answers in yourself, not an end. Recognizing and knocking down these issues one by one is where we find true freedom. It's perfecting the mind. It's moving the mind toward its intended state: one free of those road blocks and problems built up by our past experiences and failures. What is that verse...it's been so long that I forget...god has given us everything that we need for life and the pursuit of godliness...that's a rough paraphrase, but I think you'll know what I'm talking about. What do you think that means? Do you think the everything that we need is some arsenal of things outside of ourselves? No. It is the human mind...a very complex, capable mind that can do amazing things. We have everything we need wrapped up in our little brains to pursue life and to do so very well. It's just getting that mind to function at its highest level...that's the catch. I know I don't want to live my whole life with this powerful tool that works at a lower level simply because I failed to work on it and with it to make it function at its highest capabilities. That would be a failure in my eyes.
I have a lot more thoughts, but I want to answer your direct questions.
How has my journey been?? It's been good. It's been fulfilling in ways that I've never known or experienced in all my 20 years of being so wrapped up in christianity. I've bettered myself and my own mind. While I can't say I've never had moments of doubt and problems that cause some level of despair, it has never again reached the level it used to. I call that progress.
How did focusing on God make my situation worse?? It was very empty...like pretending someone/something was there but knowing it wasn't. I finally realized that this god was likely just a figment of my imagination that I had been clinging to like some sort of security blanket for 20 years. It was freeing to let go of that and come back to reality and deal with the here and now.
Doesn't finding answers in myself and my mind leave me lonely and depressed?? No. You are confusing bettering the mind and looking within yourself for answers with isolating yourself. Without other people, we wouldn't have half the knowledge we already have. The point is to take what you know and what other people have shown to be true and/or false and build on that. Isolating yourself is not the answer. But also depending on other people is not the answer. There has to be a happy medium.
Let me just try to put this in terms that make more sense to a christian. If god has given you everything you need, then why doubt the abilities of the mind?? Why doubt this very powerful tool that god gave you? Does it have faults??? Yes. It needs work. It's hard work. It requires a lot of thought, time, attention, energy. It requires a lot of self-awareness. If you know you have depressive tendencies, find out why. What experiences in your past are causing you to react in such a way today? It's not fun, but the more you answer these questions and work to remove these things from your mind, the higher the level of functioning you will achieve.
there's so much going on here i'm not sure who to respond to! to our un-named friend...i'm reading what you're saying, and i think vern will respond to it better than i can for the most part. you're just basically saying self-actualization is the chief end of life, huh? maslow's hierarchy and such. as i read your comment on a personal level, i'm wondering how being self-analytical affects your anxiety level, as that really sent mine thru the roof a few years ago!
that's when i decided to lay "meaning making" for myself aside. (the process of looking under every nook and crany of myself to try to figure out the endless quest of "why?"). i felt like it made me super zoomed in on just me and it led me to no place good...caught up in the prison of my own mind kinda deal.
i've shifted to a more "life is meaningless" mindset stemming from ecclesiastes. not so much like "hopeless" but rather than demand so much meaning from circumstances/facts of life, to instead to chalk it up to just facets of the human experiences...things to just feel deeply...to suck the marrow out of life...the good and the bad...and know that regardless of circumstance, emotion, relationship, etc., that life goes on, and the "X" is not the point, but rather what you do with it.
for me, the "meaning maker" can't be as subjective as myself, for limitations that you (anony) listed, so i let the knowledge that God allows what he allows for reasons i don't have to know about be my "meaning maker." (concept of "sovereignty of God".)
i find that this "zoomed out" mindset allows me to chill out considerably. and i'm not meaning for my viewpoint is particularly a-theistic or fatalistic, bc to me, it's very much not, but i think that this mindset would also work for our friends who are still in pursuit of truth and their "meaning maker."
but i can't sign off here without acknowledging that while i understand the anonymous commenter's statement about refining the mind isn't necessarily an isolated thing, and balance from inward and outward forces is necessary no matter where you place your locus of control, i still think that letting the chief end of meaning making remain in oneself is still coming back to finite self. so in that way, it is pretty isolated. is that faulty logic?
i have a lot to say also about "everything we need for life and godliness" which both vern and other person have referred to at different points, but i'm sure vern will respond to that.
peace out!
ok i keep thinking this thought (and please hear it in the simplest way possible...no condesention or anything trite at all in my heart when i say this...)
...i wonder if they ever just miss Jesus?
Anonymous,
First of all, I want to say that you are right on many fronts. I really appreciate your words and insights. I think I should try to answer on a couple of fronts. The first one will be to explain, “having everything you need for life and godliness.” The second one will be on the issue of the mind.
“Everything for life and godliness.”
This passage is found in 2 Peter 1. I definitely believe that Christians have been given everything they need for life and godliness because verse 4 explains that the “everything we need for life and godliness” is found through our knowledge of Jesus. Peter goes on to say that we become partakers of this divine nature by God’s very great a precious promises. Therefore, I would like to make a few observations from this passage:
1. All Christians definitely have everything they need to live life and live it well. In fact, this passage is one that I used in an earlier post for people to understand that God has given them a way to see hope in all circumstances and even if the current “fog of depression” does not lift in this life, it will one day.
2.I do not believe this passage is talking about every human being, but only those who are Christians. The context of 2 Peter is that he is speaking to believers. Although unbelievers are “naturally brilliant” (since all people are created in the image of God…unbeliever and believer) it does not follow that they are “supernaturally brilliant”. The importance of this is that it is critical to understand God does not endorse “self help” (what I mean by this is effort that is done in order to get approval from God), but instead offers so much more! I will go into this more in “The Mind” part.
3. I want to answer your question of, “Do you think the everything we need is some arsenal outside of ourselves?” I would say yes and no. I would say no because the point Peter is making is that we have already been given (past tense) everything we need. John 14:12 records that Jesus said we (Christians) would not only do what he did, but we will also do greater things than Him. This is one of the most mind blowing passages of all Scripture to me. I would say yes because the “everything” must always lead us to Him. This is where the beauty of the Trinity comes in. He (the Holy Spirit) is already inside of every believer, leading us by the sacrifice of Him (the Son) back into relationship with Him (the Father). Therefore “the outside ourselves” is Jesus and the Father, but the inside ourselves is the Holy Spirit. So what this magnifies is the matter of relationship. He has “sealed us with the Holy Spirit” (Eph. 1:13) i.e. the total perfection of God, in order to lead us to the total perfection of God (the Father) through the totally perfect sacrifice of God (the Son). The reason why this is such a big deal to what you are saying is because the “arsenal outside” of us is mainly wrapped up in the issue of relationship with the One who created us. It is not a matter of using some abstract ideas to attain self actualization.
“The Mind”
1. I think you are totally right that we should not doubt the abilities of the mind. We are told to love God with our entire mind. One of the problems among professing believers is that many think faith is some sort of “leap” into oblivion, so to speak. The problem is that Biblical faith is an “informed faith”. What I mean by this is the Bible teaches a totally logical faith, but it also teaches that faith is more than logic. Therefore, I believe that professing Christians need to do a lot better job of loving God with the entire mind. After all, you will never truly love from the heart unless you love with your mind first.
2. I believe that every Christian has already been given the mind of Jesus (1 Cor. 2:16). What this means is astounding! First of all, if Christians really believe Jesus was the smartest man ever to live, they should act like it. We have already been given His mind. To forfeit the use of the mind in the name of “faith” is to degrade Jesus and make Him out to be dumb. What this means is that your pursuit to trust in your mind can and should be done in a God centered way. He has created the mind, with all of its incredible intricacies, so that we will understand more and more and more.
Next, your point about “self awareness” is very important in Christianity also. In fact, if you do not have a proper estimation of yourself it can be the difference of Heaven and Hell. I believe that God knows every single person better than they even know themselves. This produces some great consequences. First, when a Christian talks about “dying to themselves” it should not be morbid (see Lk. 9:23-24). If I understand that He knows me better than I know myself, actually my “death to self” is the way to better understand myself. Next, the way that someone should become more “self aware” is by asking God to examine him or her and listen to what He says. This prevents us from two things: having a view that we are doing worse than we actually are or having a view that we are doing better than we actually are.
Third, we are told that we must be transformed by the renewal of our mind so that by testing we can discern the good, acceptable and perfect will of God (Rom. 12:2). What this means is that if our mind is not being truly “renewed” you are not using your mind properly. God takes the use of our mind very seriously. People that do not take the view that God believes this is important make Him out to look like a distant God who is just chillin’ up in Heaven not really having any idea on how to be God.
I know I have only said two things on “The Mind” but the response is getting long and if you have made it this far I think I should probably give you some type of medal for sticking with my thoughts. I have a couple of questions for you also. By the way, feel free to interact with any of the stuff above. I have not responded right away because I really want to think about what you say and I value you a ton!
1. Do you come from a Scientology or Buddhist background (recently at least)? Some of your thoughts are in line with Hubbard (the founder of Scientology).
2.What would you do if you found out that Christianity was the true way to “self awareness”?
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