Here is a blog from an old professor of Amber's. He is an amazing man who has influenced a ton of people. I pray the Lord will keep Dr. Reeves strong in Him.
click here a genuine faith (the comments are worth reading)
Let me know what your thoughts are on pacifism. By the way...it is fine to not agree, but we are all called to disagree with humility.
Love Truth
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8 comments:
I must confess that I have not given much thought to pacifism or what I personally believe about it. However after reading the blog that you linked to yours if that is in fact an accurate definition of the position than I do not agree with it. Here are a few reasons why:
1.It would be easy to infer from the blog that it is impossible to be a Christian unless one is a contemporary of Jesus. ”Genuine pacifists live under fascist dictators, where the context of Jesus' teaching matches the conviction of those who would live out non-violent resistance.” The author seems to imply that the teachings are confined to the specific social conditions in which he taught. The reality is that there will never again be a society such as the one that existed during the time of Christ. There may be similarities between various societies but no exact matches. In light of this we are left with two options; throw everything out because it is not identical, or contextualize the teachings to the culture where we find ourselves.
2.If pacifism is the same thing as non-violent resistance, it raises this issue: If I claim to be a pacifist and I witness a child being beaten, or an old woman being robbed, I would be forced to stand idly by and watch. I guess I would have the right or obligation to suggest the attacker stop, but would have to stop short of physically intervening. I cannot see how that would be the most loving thing to do.
Just some thoughts from Mr. Stepan and myself. Much love bro have a great weekend.
I take issue with one thing in this post, Dogg: you say we should "disagree with humility." I can't believe you would say that! Christ teaches that we should be humble. That we should live a life of humility. Paul says in Philippians 2 that we should have the same attitude as Christ, who HUMBLED Himself! HOw could you say that?!? I challenge you to support your argument that we should disagree with humility.
Anonymous commentor:
I think you misread the entry. He's saying that, if we are going to disagree, then we need to be humble in our approach and discussion. He's not saying that humility is wrong.
Justin and John:
My brother and I were discussing these very issues, and while it seems a little bit unclear exactly what Dr. Reeves' position is (at least when I was reading it at 1:30am after a day of potty training), it seems like his comments agree with your #2 statement exactly. I think his point is that we do enjoy protection from rape and other such things, and we probably wouldn't stand idly by watching our spouses beaten or raped, etc. I think Dr. Reeves is saying that, because we don't have trouble defending ourselves and others (sometimes using force) in extreme situations, then one cannot claim to be a pacifist in the real sense. I think you're right on about intervening, and if I'm reading Dr. Reeves' comments correctly, I think he would too.
In the end, I think it would be amazing if everyone in the world could sit down and have an intelligent conversation resulting in logical action, but that's obviously not the world we live in. I'm not a pacifist, but I do think that we should always use the least amount of force necessary while still taking care of those around us. It seems strange to go to an extreme to look out for the good of a perpetrator while his/her victim is being trashed before our eyes.
Bro, why don't you add some of your thoughts here?
Anonymous...I would first of all encourage you to not stay anonymous. Next, I believe that Christ's death on the cross was not only the ultimate act of humility, but also an act of total disagreement. Humility will ALWAYS produce disagreement with another "force". Jesus disagreed with what the world offered as "true happiness". His humility and disagreement offered us Life. Humility will never allow people to always agree, but my point is that when PEOPLE do disagree it is important to not be haughty (as opposed to the disagreement that satan and demons have with us because not only will they always be haughty in disagreement but they will try to get humans to be haughty towards one another).
I hope this makes more sense and if it does not I am totally open for more dialogue.
On the topic of pacifism...I agree with Dr. Reeves on the position that it would be hard to endorse being a pacifist, while living in a country which is going to war in order to defend you. I also do not believe many people who say they are a pacifist really are when it all boils down. It does not seem proper that one would say they do not believe in defensive war while at the same time agreeing to have police come to their aid. An example would be of a husband who comes in his house and finds his wife being raped. What does he do? Does he turn his back? Does he ask the intruder to kindly get off of his wife because his wife does not appreciate the rapist forcing himself on her?
These options do not seem to be the proper response. The husband should use force to get the man off of his wife and then call the "defenders of freedom" (the police) and tell them to apprehend the man and put him in jail. Now, what if the rapist turned and shot my wife and I (the wounds were not fatal) and then before he left he continued to tell us that he was going to do the same thing to everyone on the block. Would it be wrong for me to call in the "defenders of freedom", even though it puts their lives at risk, or would it be right to let this man continue what he is doing? Who would be wrong? Now, if you magnify the personal story to one that deals with countries against each other I believe this is the situation we are talking about. This may be an over simplification...thoughts?
I would also say that we have much to learn from people like Gandhi, who were able to change an entire nation through non-violence. The US has undoubtedly made mistakes in the current war, but it is also important to remember that what is being discussed is "Just War", not the injustice that happens when sin marred people do not act in a just manner.
Let me know what you think.
i love that everyone is joining in on this convo. thanks for all your thoughts. I have many things to say but will only say one thing for now. i will say, to clear the air for Justin and Jon, one of my favorite things about being in Dr. Reeves class was that he would bring about the questions that many have thought but are not willing to discuss, namely, the lack of exact matches betwen the society we live in now and the society Jesus lived in and what to contexualize and what to take literally....i love it. it challenges me to know the Truth.
I would highly recomend his book A genuine Faith to each of you.
I have to disagree with all of you. You all are making a basic but common error - you equate non-violence with non-action. Biblical Pacifism as taught by Jesus does not teach us to "roll over and take it", nor to stand by and watch as the innocent are oppressed. Rather Jesus calls us to creative non-violent resistance.
This is his teaching in the sermon on the mount. Turning the other cheek, giving away one's inner cloak and walking an extra mile are means of resisting oppressors without robbing them of their essential humanity. they are means of exposing the inhumanity of the attacker's oppression without resorting to such tactics ourselves.
i have disagreed with Dr. Reeves on his blog as well - I think that all of us are called to a life of non-violence and pacifism.
additionally, it seems clear to me that justin misread what Reeves was claiming in his point 1. He was not claiming that Jesus' teachings were culturally specific (though sometimes they were - how many of us understand the parable of the sower without some help from scholars?), but rather that we who live in a state infamous for its military might can little claim to be pacifists in Jesus' style, because unlike Jesus, our very livelihoods are built upon the backs of the oppressed of the world.
jr...
I appreciate your comments. It may be good to give some examples of how this can be worked out today. For instance, how would you say is the best way for the US to conduct ourselves in the present situation?
Also...I believe the Biblical instance you gave (turn the other cheek etc.) MUST be obeyed. We must never get in a situation where we "prefer" one Scripture over the other (in my mind this is one of the issues with Calvinism/Arminianism). I say this because how is one to hold adhere to what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount ALONG WITH looking at how he cleansed the Temple.
Another area that may be good to address is Romans 13. Is it your view that no Christians should not be involved with the State or if they are how do they uphold verses 3-4.
Also...it seems that you may be imputing some thoughts into me by saying I am making the common mistake of viewing non-violence with non-action. I would disagree with you because one of the people I brought up in my post was Gandhi. I believe influenced the areas of non violence in many ways, while also being very active. I am just not sure this can happen in every instance. I may be wrong and am open to change, some of the issues with Romans 13 also cause me to hold the view that in some cases we may have to use violence.
Let me know your thoughts brotha. By the way...I have know idea who you are, but Amber appreciates you a ton so I just wanted to thank you for that. Have a great day.
Another question I have for pacifists is this: What course of action do you recommend for situations where a person comes home and finds his children being raped by an intruder? In another arena, if peace talks or non-violent intervention is ineffective, is there any action that should take place in situations like those in Sudan and Uganda? For example, how do we protect the children whose lives are depicted in The Invisible Children videos? Or is the suggestion that we try to get the involved parties together for discussion and then sit back and pray that the African people will come to a conclusion on their own? I hope I'm not sounding sarcastic here (realizing that it's hard for people to read my tone). If anyone reading this has any response, please let me know.
Thanks!
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